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lnrHead in a whirl, moral dilemmas, when is cheating cheating?, is it my problem?, can I even stop if I want?
And why the fuck do you wake up at 7am or so when you've been up late, and not even drinking eh?
Mind I might be confused but hell so far it's been worth it.
And why the fuck do you wake up at 7am or so when you've been up late, and not even drinking eh?
Mind I might be confused but hell so far it's been worth it.
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no subject
Date: 2003-03-25 03:21 am (UTC)*hugs*
I so know where you're coming from on this one... :-/
can I even stop if I want?
... but I'm afraid the harsh answer to that one is "yes".
(Not sure LJ comments are the best place to have this conversation. Talk later?)
no subject
Date: 2003-03-25 03:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-03-25 03:39 am (UTC)*hugs*. i, also, know where you're coming from. whether you can stop probably depends on the relative importance of things, and whether you feel that you've been led up the garden path as far as what's ok and what's off-limits are.
-m-
no subject
Date: 2003-03-25 03:43 am (UTC)when is cheating cheating?
When it is outside the negotiated (or heavily implied) bounds of the relationship(s) of the parties involved.
is it my problem?
Yes, morally. Yes, strictly, if you are within the fallout-zone of the (almost) inevitable disclosure.
can I even stop if I want?
Yes, though it may well not be easy.
why the fsck do you wake up at 7am..?
Because you are full of confusion, stress (?) and moral dilemmas! :)
*hugs*, shoulders and ears are all available on request... Apply within. [oo-eer!]
if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-25 05:00 am (UTC)When it is outside the negotiated (or heavily implied) bounds of the relationship(s) of the parties involved.
So if somebody goes outside the bounds of their relationship to do something with you, are you cheating? If so, who are you cheating?
[is it my problem?]
Yes, morally.
Why should it be your responsibility to try to ensure that somebody else honours the contract (which didn't involve you) that they voluntarily made and are voluntarily breaking?
[playing Devil's Advocate slightly here, but not just for the sake of being contrary...]
Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-25 05:05 am (UTC)So if somebody goes outside the bounds of their relationship to do something with you, are you cheating? If so, who are you cheating?
IMO, no, since you weren't a party to forming the rules they're breaking, nor (in general) did you agree to abide by them; you are, however, aiding and abetting their cheating, so there is some moral, um, thingy applicable if you know the rules exist.
Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-25 05:34 am (UTC)[In that situation] are you "cheating", no. ...is "it" cheating, yes. You can participate in "cheating" without being a "cheat", IYSWIM.
Why should it be your responsibility...
It is insomuch as I would try to take into account the (previously-expressed) wishes of a partner into account. This argument doesn't take into account the "one night stand", though if you don't know that the other party has other commitments then that mitigates it, IMO.
Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-25 07:47 am (UTC)I see what you mean, I just feel rather offended at being described as "participating in cheating" when I haven't broken any rules, agreements, contracts or anything voluntarily entered into by me. I can't be expected to know and account for everybody else's relationship agreements; that's their problem.
It is insomuch as I would try to take into account the (previously-expressed) wishes of a partner into account.
Even if they're giving you strongly conflicting signals? Which "wishes" do you take into account then?
I think the problem I have here is that to some extents adults have to be responsible for their own choices. Let's take a slightly less emotive example than sex/relationships -- let's take diets. If a friend tells me they're on a diet, and that they're not allowed to eat any chocolate on this diet (yeah, I know, but it's a crap analogy, not reality), then fair enough, I'll try to remember that, try not to offer them chocolates so as not to put temptation in their path. On the other hand, if they see me eating chocolates and ask for one, I might say "I thought you weren't allowed them!" or just raise eyebrows and say "Diet starts tomorrow?" but I wouldn't actually deny them one -- at the end of the day it's their choice how well they stick to the rules that they've imposed on themself. ... Assuming I don't mind sharing my chocolates with them, that is; but then, I usually don't mind.
The rules that we make up for ourselves are basically just a self-imposed set of guidelines, a matrix of reference points for an essentially chaotic universe -- they're not supposed to be things that the rest of the world has an inalienable right to hold us to forever just because we once thought they were helpful.
NB, I'm not telling you "This is how you have to behave", I'm saying "This is how I see it." (It's just easier to say it without having to preface every sentence with "IMHO" or "IME" or "As I see it" or other disclaimers.)
And of course, the corollorary of everybody making their own choices is that you have every right to deny your friend the chocolate -- whether because you don't want to share, or because you believe you're helping them.
Personally, though, I don't like trying to second-guess what will be "best" for my friends. I'll offer advice and opinions, but I don't want to presume to tell them how to run their lives.
There are times when I think "This is a Really Dumb Thing To Do, there's no way I'm getting involved in it", but that's more about self-preservation than morals. I'll still tell them that I think it's a dumb thing, and/or why I don't want to get involved in it, but I can't stop them going and finding somebody else to do dumb things with.
(This is all getting horribly close to the taking-knives-away-from-people argument, though, and it's only a short step from that to John Stuart Mill and jumping off bridges. Argh, I feel like all the arguments that there are to have are just so condensed and concentrated in my head because I've Had Them All Before...)
Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-25 08:12 am (UTC)No, but if you did know, then wouldn't you take the other person's interests into account?
[chocolate]
The way I tend to view it, if someone who I know should not have my "chocolate" asked me for some "chocolate", then I'd ask them if they were sure they wanted it (had considered its impact on their "diet") first. If they had and they were sure, then yes, it's their choice (and potentially mistake) to make.
Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-25 08:17 am (UTC)They're pretty sure see...
Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-25 08:35 am (UTC)No, I don't [see], which is why I'm getting tied up in knots of generalities. I don't know the specifics of what you are referring to. If you think my input would help then it is probably best if this discussion is taken over into email --- otherwise I'll buy you a drink next time I see you.
*hugs*
Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-25 08:44 am (UTC)They don't think anyone will get hurt, they're sure they want to go ahead anyway even though it's been pointed out and are prepared to live with the consequences, the only thing stopping them is my qualms.
Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-25 09:39 am (UTC)Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-25 05:29 pm (UTC)Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-26 07:07 am (UTC)It's kind of hard to explain without going into detail that's not really mine to tell, but I think there's enough trustworthiness there. At least for a friendship with sex round the edges, which is what I'm looking at here.
Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-25 01:00 pm (UTC)there's a third party involved, even if they don't get to make any decisions
This is the tricky bit, isn't it? A few rhetorical questions: What is their reaction going/likely to be? How could it impact on you, in the best-case? ...and the worst? What is the fallout likely to be for the other party (again best/worst case)? Will you be able to cope if it all goes wrong, and messy? These are all things that I'd be thinking about...
The lack of decisions on the part of the third party is troubling. It makes me wonder how closely it parallels some of my experiences, and if so then be very sure that what you propose is worth it before you act.
Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-26 07:18 am (UTC)Having taken a day or so to think about stuff, my feelings on these sorts of issues, and so on, with no pressure (which has been very much appreciated) I'm beginning to feel like it wouldn't be too much of a problem if I were to go ahead. I know Jan doesn't think I'm barking to feel like that. Need to talk to Richard about it too.
I mean I'm not even necessarily talking about having sex as yet anyway. More sort of bearing it in mind as something that might happen in the future maybe.
Re: if at first you don't succeed...
Date: 2003-03-25 06:02 am (UTC)However, it's probably bad practice and leads to unnecessary annoyance and static if you do it in too small and querulous a social space. Or even a large and querulous social space. So I try very hard not to myself.
(Except when I really really want to.)
Create-your-own Morals and Ethics - now only $1.99!!!
Date: 2003-03-25 06:02 am (UTC)One of the things that religion (ime) give people is a shared set of morals that they should live by - especially where your religion is your community. Of course, these are someone *else's* idea of right and wrong, so people struggle with them, and break them. And they're often enforced with fear, which is not a good thing.
I've got my (changing and evolving) set of rules, and I usually go along with them. When I break them I feel bad. When I was meant to be religious (school imposed) I broke everything I could whenever I could and felt better for it. Being told something was wrong made it more enticing.
Gah! Witter! I should stop stating the obvious now.
no subject
Date: 2003-03-25 06:36 am (UTC)