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lnrFrom a conversation on irc...
To me all of the below are in some way the same sort of thing, although I didn't see it that way until Richard pointed it out a year or so back. It made me feel a lot less bitter at people who I don't see as overweight who still want to be thinner. I instinctively still find the cosmetic surgery more distasteful than most of the rest, and wonder if others feel the same.
NB More what you find acceptable in others than what you would consider doing yourself.
[Poll #369403]
To me all of the below are in some way the same sort of thing, although I didn't see it that way until Richard pointed it out a year or so back. It made me feel a lot less bitter at people who I don't see as overweight who still want to be thinner. I instinctively still find the cosmetic surgery more distasteful than most of the rest, and wonder if others feel the same.
NB More what you find acceptable in others than what you would consider doing yourself.
[Poll #369403]
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no subject
Date: 2004-10-19 10:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-19 10:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-19 10:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-19 10:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-19 11:01 pm (UTC)When you say "to you", do you mean "which ones would you feel comfortable having done/doing to yourself" ?
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Date: 2004-10-19 11:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-19 11:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-19 11:32 pm (UTC)There's a lot of different body-mods in there, though, & while Richard may think they're all the same thing, I think they can be loosely divided in two different ways: first, the distinction between the ones that are purely decorative (piercing, hairdye) and the ones that could have sound medical reasons (teeth-straightening, laser eye surgery, dieting); second, the distinction between the ones that are temporary/reversible (piercing, hairdye, dieting, contacts) and the ones that aren't trivially removable (tattooing, surgery, scarification).
I'm not going to draw moral conclusions from that; the above is just a starting point for balancing risk and necessity, benefits and consequences; I think those are areas where individuals have to draw their own lines.
The only thing I would say is that I don't think any of them are acceptable things to do to somebody else without their full knowledge and consent, or to try to pressure somebody else into doing; and I wouldn't advise anybody to rush into any of them without thinking about the consequences.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-19 11:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 06:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 07:15 am (UTC)I guess that I probably fall into this category; however for me controlling what I eat strictly is a form of control. Its also better than what I was doing - following the Slimming World diet strictly and going to the gym at the same time. Doing that was starting to screw my body up; whilst calorie counting is more of a faff to do, it does mean that I'm not in danger of my body metabolising muscle for energy as it was doing before I started calorie counting.
As for why I'm still eating 85% of the calories I need to keep on reducing body fat; that is more to do with my screwed up body image than anything else. You never know, one of these days I may actually like my body at some point; if I'm honest I can say that its only one bit of my body which I really dislike and have seriously negative thoughts these days so I'm vaguely getting there. Sort of. Maybe.
As for the list of body modifications, I think that if a person really wants to do it and understands that its not going to solve everything then its okay. I do think that cosmetic surgery should have counselling associated with it as well; from what I read it does seem that the better cosmetic surgeons do think this as well at times.
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Date: 2004-10-20 08:04 am (UTC)Not got the time at the moment, but it would be interesting to see whether the modifications to make yourself look less normal (lots of piercings, tattoos, etc) are more acceptable to our group than modifications to make yourself look more normal (dieting, teeth straightening, etc).
Also wondering whether people have a specific person in mind when voting for or against deliberate scarification. *grin*
You could run another poll: what would be an acceptable reason for doing $body_mod, and what would be an unacceptable reason.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 08:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 08:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 08:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 08:56 am (UTC)I suppose that's a sort of sideways angle on the question -- is it "acceptable" for people to present themselves in a way that other people (may) find repellent? I'd be very, very wary of saying that any of the above body-mods were "unacceptable" just because I personally found them repellent; I mean, there's a slippery slope there which ends in ludicrous things like "should fat people be allowed to wear bikinis?" and "should total mingers be allowed out in public without paper bags over their head?"
(Actually,
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Date: 2004-10-20 08:59 am (UTC)There's another way of dividing them, actually, that I forgot to mention before: visible/invisible. Nobody needs to know that you've had laser eye surgery or even a nose-job (provided they haven't seen the 'before' and 'after', of course); under normal circumstances nobody can see if you've got your wobbly bits pierced; but a bone through the nose or a scar on the cheek is fairly impossible to hide.
(I draw no moral conclusions from this observation.)
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Date: 2004-10-20 09:01 am (UTC)Interesting. Would you have similar objections if people spent a large amount of money on, say, a holiday?
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Date: 2004-10-20 09:06 am (UTC)So normal people are all thin and have perfect teeth. Right. Just checking.
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Date: 2004-10-20 09:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 09:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 09:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 09:29 am (UTC)Teeth straightening: it depends how, I suppose. If done non-invasively (with a brace or whatever) then probably OK — in fact it's something I had when I was about 13 (which is why my top teeth are straighter than my bottom teeth).
You missed out teeth whitening, which is something I've never bothered with although it would be useful for me because when I was small my doctor gave me tetracycline when he shouldn't have.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 09:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 09:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 09:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 09:40 am (UTC)I thought a brace was pretty damned invasive when I had to wear one. :-/ It did no bloody good, either! Not that I mind having crooked teeth, it just seems to have been a bit of a waste of time having all those teeth out & wearing braces and so on. Though I suppose maybe I'd have had even worse teeth without it... urgh.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 09:50 am (UTC)The things I didn't tick:
nose piercing: looks awful IMO on most people
deliberate scarification: irreversible when you grow up and want rid of it, also attention skeeing/status symbol of being 'different' and that just irritates me
large tattoos: ditto
wearing coloured contacts: what's the point?
cosmetic surgery: waste of money/stop being so vain.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 10:03 am (UTC)Eleanor seemed to find it useful when I made the original remark way back when. IIRC the original context was someone objecting fairly loudly to the concept of dieting and the particular comparison was between dieting and piercing.
If someone wants to change their body in some way, and has a reasonable understanding of the consequences and risks, can afford it, is an adult, etc etc etc, I think it's their own business in the end. (So perhaps the class I'm talking about might be the class of things I think this of...)
no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 10:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 10:34 am (UTC)I think you're on dangerous ground with 'attention seeking'. I think that's a very biased, unfounded opinion, and certainly doesn't hold for a lot of people.
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Date: 2004-10-20 10:40 am (UTC)Laser eye surgery is one of those things that I keep tracking every now and again and might have done myself one day, although I have concerns about the safety and long-term effects. I once met someone who'd had it done and spoke very highly of it.
The one body mod I do object to isn't on your list: circumcision. Unless you're really Jewish, there is no excuse for mutilating your children. This seems to be an American thing for men, and an African thing for women.
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Date: 2004-10-20 10:51 am (UTC)Even when it'd be abnormal in a culture not to have such markings? (Consider cultures ranging from Western merchant marine to various African and Australasian peoples).
no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 10:53 am (UTC)...or a different cultural norm:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=maori+scarification
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Date: 2004-10-20 11:32 am (UTC)(Limiting this to male circumcision for obvious reasons.) Not even when it's medically indicated? Do you think they should wait until the boy is old enough to give informed consent or request surgery (how likely do you think that is?) And have to undergo a couple of months of painful recovery and rehabilitation, compared to the comparatively brief recovery time needed by babies? Does tonsillectomy fall into the same category?
circumcision
Date: 2004-10-20 12:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 12:41 pm (UTC)iirc (again) recent studies show tonsilectomy doesn't make much difference to QualityOfLifeYears which is what all medicine is now based round (apparently).
I've got mine and they're just dandy.
Well a bit sore this last week or so, actually...
no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 01:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 02:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 02:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 02:52 pm (UTC)But mostely I think that it being your body you should do what you like to it, so long as you are adult and consenting and paying for it yourself...
no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 04:54 pm (UTC)In the interests of more interesting answers, I've ticked the ones I've done or would consider doing to myself.
I'm quite happy for other people to do whatever they like to their bodies; I just may or may not like it.
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Date: 2004-10-20 08:45 pm (UTC)personally though i would not have *any* of them done, and havent, except for teeth straightening with braces when i was 8, if that counts.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-20 08:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-21 07:05 am (UTC)"Unless you're really Jewish, there is no excuse for mutilating your children."
What difference does it make? Is it OK only if you subscribe to an organised belief system that says you should (which would include Islam as well, by the way)?
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Date: 2004-10-22 12:05 pm (UTC)In that case no - I wasn't being particularly objective when I took the poll/wrote that, and was writing purely from the perspective of 'normal' Western society.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 01:03 pm (UTC)I find it very hard to understand why anyone would want large tattoos/scarification - it often looks a mess, makes getting a job more difficult and is very difficult to get rid of in the future. IM(limited)E such modifications tend to be done by people to show their membership of particular social groups.
I don't like people doing things to their bodies simply in order to show off (which isn't to say they shouldn't do things like that, just that I don't like it - 'cos I think people should value their bodies more than using them as something just to be shown off) (showing off being different in my mind to doing something because it makes you feel good about yourself). I also don't get the cultures that say 'you must have this particular modification to be part of us' - if the culture is strong enough to be a real grouping, then why does it need such visible symbols?
Maybe what I should have said is that I object to body modifications when the motivation behind them is something like 'I want to do this to my body to show I belong to this social group'. When they're done for reasons like 'this will look great' or 'this makes me feel good about myself' I've far fewer objections - but all of that said, I don't believe it's my place to decide what's acceptable or not. Adults have every right to do what they like with their bodies.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 03:23 pm (UTC)also don't get the cultures that say 'you must have this particular modification to be part of us' - if the culture is strong enough to be a real grouping, then why does it need such visible symbols?
You could say that about wearing clothes in Western countries.
'I want to do this to my body to show I belong to this social group'. When they're done for reasons like 'this will look great' or 'this makes me feel good about myself' I've far fewer objections
I think you'll find a lot of people with scarification don't fit into either of these neat little boxes you have consigned people to. It's not a social construct. It's certainly not about looking good. People have their own reasons, and I don't think this is the place to start discussing them. But I wanted to challenge your prejudices and generalizations, and I hope I've done that.
This isn't meant to be rude or offensive, I just thought it needed saying.